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Pack Order.......... The Basis of Dog Obedience
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StuartW
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If anyone wants to ask me a specific question or get references etc then I think it would be best to message me, otherwise this debate will never end! lol


That's what the forum is for Wink
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Janis
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:


I have tried my very best to answer questions as directly as possible. If anyone wants to ask me a specific question or get references etc then I think it would be best to message me, otherwise this debate will never end! lol




i would like to ask what you will qualify as come november?

can you quote a few books we can look out to read that you have been studying?"]
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am studying for a diploma in companion animal behaviour with a company called coape. Google it and it will appear. It is the only place in uk that offers accredited behaviour courses. When I am finished the course, I will be a qualified pet behaviourist. I have completed a foundation course in canine behaviour and I will finish the diploma in about august. I am also doing a shorter course in November which basically concentrates on more serious behaviour cases. Hope that satisfies everyone's curiousity Smile

If anyone is interested in reading up on this topic I can recommend the following:

Dogs A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger. This book is fantastic. A great read the the Coppingers are wonderful people. Ray Coppinger is actually holding a talk at Oatridge College at the end of this year.

Dominance: Fact or Fiction? by Barry Eaton

Dominance Theory and Dogs by James O'Heare. James O'Heare has many wonderful books, especially good books on aggression.

These I would say are the top books I would recommend. The first one I have to say is a must.

I didnt think anyone would want me to rhyme off these books! lol I am happy to oblige though. I have other books on this subject but I found these ones to be the best.
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Came across this testimonial about a local dog training class........look for Stephanie and her Newfoundland Luna............this is the class that refused entry to Buster the West Highland terrier ( who attends our classes) because of his "behavioral problems", he had previously been asked to leave Kirkintilloch dog training after biting the instructor..........after some basic pack order instruction Buster is a contented happy dog who attends classes and has no issues.

Coincidence perhaps?

I'll let people make what they will of this...........why not be upfront and tell people you are involved with a dog club less than 3 miles from ours?


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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luna hasnt been to this class for a while now - I think over 6 months. I have never hidden anything at all. The lady who runs that class is very nice and it was taking Luna to classes that sparked my interest in behaviour. If I hadnt taken Luna to classes then I think she very well may have had some problems now. The classes taught how to prevent potential behaviour problems arising.

As I said before if your dog has any sort of behaviour problems then it is not always best for them to take part in a class. After all everyone in the class in there to learn and it isnt fair for one dog to cause disturbances. Also a dog with some problems can sometimes be made worse if put into a class environment. The best way to deal with this is to provide one to one training. With Buster I am sure you implemented your pack order structure before he joined the class. I dont know what appeared to be wrong with Buster, but if he had problems I would take steps before allowing him to join a class. Some dogs are just not suitable for class environments - its just not fair on them or the other dogs. I am sure if you were to ask Lynn about Buster she would explain her reasons.

From my exeperience pack order can seem to work because it takes away all the little rewards the dog usually gets during the day. Therfore making it less likely to display any behaviours at it becomes pointless to the dog. It can leave the dog feeling resigned and sometimes depressed. My tutor on my course - Val Strong - explained that the results that were gained by rank reduction programmes were varied and not always dependable. Val uses positive reinforcement methods and has continual success. She is also one of the best assistance dog trainers there is.

I would like to say I am not 'involved' with Lynn's dog club. I used to take Luna to classes and I ask Lynn for advice sometimes on Luna. I dont know how far away Lynn is from you as I dont live in that part of Scotland. I had to travel to get to classes. You make it sound like I am trying to cover up a big secret. My purpose of joining this forum was find out from people involved with dog behaviour their different way of doing things. I also wanted to let people know of other ways and see what they thought. In my mind to be a good behaviourist then it is best to know what is going on within the behaviour world.

Obviously John you have built up a good reputation doing what you do and I have the utmost respect for you because of this. I am not here to critise or judge. I only want to find out more about this. If you would like to know any more about the things I have spoken about I urge you to read the books I have recommended. All I can say is we are all trying to do the same thing, and as long as we dont use physically cruel methods then we should both just do what we think works best!

I am not trying to prove anything, so I think we will just have to agree to disagree Smile I would shake your hand if I could!
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stephanie,

I just found it a coincidence that you appear on the website of a dog class less than 3 miles from us..........

Just because I believe in pack order does not mean that I am not a strong advocate of positive reinforcement and also negative reinforcement on the occasions that it is needed for that matter. We use food treats for younger dogs and also build drive using toys ( ball on a rope is best) just as the agility and shutzhound trainers do.

Pack order is simply the way I live with my dogs.........I am their leader so I set the rules. It does not make me a tyrant who does not love their dogs and rules ruthlessly with and iron fist..........far from it.

I don't let them on furniture ,beds etc for the same reason as you ......I don't want a big hairy dog on my bed or couch but as I have dogs that are prone to being dominant, one has particularly high prey drive, this is another reason I refuse to allow it.

My rules ensure that the stable, happy structure is maintained. My dogs are fit and happy and under my control which is something that people with GDS's and Rotties etc have to display at all times.

As for Buster attending classes I have no idea why he was turned away from Muirhead other than being told he was 'not suitable' but he came straight into our classes and has never had a problem.

I would also say that my dog training views are not 'old fashioned' quite the opposite they are simply common sense.
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:
The classes taught how to prevent potential behaviour problems arising.

As I said before if your dog has any sort of behaviour problems then it is not always best for them to take part in a class. After all everyone in the class in there to learn and it isnt fair for one dog to cause disturbances. Also a dog with some problems can sometimes be made worse if put into a class environment. The best way to deal with this is to provide one to one training.


Hi Stephanie, welcome to the forum! I am Ashley, and together with JayDee we have a 9 month old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

Pack order is implemented in our household, and works for us, so im happy with that. I have seen evidence of it working whilst out walking with the other dogs, but you are right... I am sure there are many theories out there. I have looked at others you have suggested, and still believe that pack order exists, is present in the everyday lives of our dogs, and that even my tiny Cav displays signs of dominance at times.

Anyhoo... that wasnt my point here, as has been said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please dont be shocked if you feel 'outted'(although this will in no be done intentionally)... im sure you browsed the forum as a guest prior to joining and you will have therefore observed that we all work along the lines of pack order. There are well over a hundred member son the forum and it works for all of us.

To my point regarding the above quote...
Surely classes are there to help address behavioural problems in a setting that most dogs will always encounter. Its great if my dog behaves with just me around, and maybe one other person, but I want to know my dog behaves that way when surrounded by other dogs, people and distractions as that is what we encounter on our walks everyday.

We will be shortly having a rescue Cav join our house who has some issues, notably... he bites! I do not intend to take on private tuition as I feel that it is neccessary for him to be in a class environment with said distractions. I understand that you feel it is unfair in the class on other people...
But that is the absolutely wonderful thing about our classes... when we go along, we are not only concerned for our dogs, but all others who attend and we all help each other and take time to understand the issues that each dog faces. I know I will have the help and support of everyone there, and wont be viewed as a 'disturbance' if my dog misbehaves in class. I dont believe that classes are for ALREADY obedient and balanced dogs!! I wouldnt pay money for that!!!
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kendal
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the whole point of a class environment is to allow you to learn to control your dog and for your dog to learn to ignore distractions, ie if during a off lead recall a dog decides it wants to stretch its legs and have a bit of a wonder or a run about, it gives the other handlers the opportunity to to practice keeping there dogs attention.

obviously there are situations that would be better done in a different environment on one to one with a trainer as its not possible to do it in class, e.g my Inca likes to chase bikes so that would have to be dealt with out on a walk, which i have done using a whistle.

your dog is going to come into contact with dogs of different natures all the time so i don't see why they should not do so in class, if my two never came into contact with a very in your face dog they would be a nervous wreck meeting them out side.
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kirsty
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stephanie

Welcome to the forum Smile

I am recently appreciating, having just started to study at my grand old age, that there are many informed, educated opinions on most things.

I have found your posts very interesting, and imagine you may feel a bit under pressure by our staunch defense of pack order training methods.

I am no expert on the subject and can only speak from my own experience, I have a very dominant sometimes problematic dog. No one will ever convince me that his behavior is not dominance (as I know it). John's help and training methods have changed my dog ownership experience from hell to almost enjoyable Laughing We all love our dogs dearly and do use positive re-inforcement and I do feel bad if Dodge is misbehaving and I am constantly on his back.

Before owning this particular dog I did not even know the term pack order and wonder how I ever got through 14 years of dog ownership without any understanding of how a dog thinks (if we can ever, either the pack order theorists or non pack order theorists, know how a dog thinks). Luckily in the past I have never owned a dominant dog.

Are there any articles on the web, as books can be difficult and expensive to obtain. I would be really interested in reading any 'shorter' works.
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the positive posts. It can be a bit pressuring with everyone else believing the opposite of what you do, but I enjoy learning about everyone elses opinions.

Everyone runs classes in the way they see fit. Obviously classes are not just for the well behaved dogs..otherwise my newfie would never have been allowed to attend lol. She has always been very boisterous and I found that the classes helped her lots. What I mean when I say that some dogs are not suited to class environments is that some dogs have very severe aggression problems or are extremely nervous etc. Dogs with these issues, as I am sure everyone will understand, will need help with these issues before being swamped with lots of other dogs. So in those instances I would be try to tackle the root of these problems before letting the dog into a class environment.

I will have a look and try to find some articles regarding this issue and will post on here. Most of my research is from my tutors material and books. If you can get a hold of the Coppinger book then get it. It doesnt just deal with the topic of dominance.

I am not calling anyone on here a tyrant. Everyone clearly loves their dogs and really that is the most important thing! Smile

Oh I should say to John that there are not many classes down my end of the world ( near the borders) so that is why I had to travel to Lynn's class. I have never been very good with geography!
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again everyone!

If anyone wants some shorter reading then if you message me with your email address I can forward some of my essays I did for previous course work.

This is a fantastic website:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

It also gives information on the Coppinger book. Please have a read and see what you think! It would great to read your comments and read what you think about it Smile

I wanted to give you an example of an aggression case I was asked about during my course work.

This dog was 8 years old, a mongrel, rescued 10 months ago, owners are retired and take the dog walking a lot. The problem was that dog was displaying 'sofa aggression'. The dog would sit beside the owner on the couch and growl, snarl and often snap at him. What do you think could be causing this? I was confused....everything about the dog was great apart from this.

My tutor explained that this dog was actually hypoglycemic! The little dog was only getting fed once a day and exercising lots. His blood sugar levels fell so low at night when he was curled on the couch that he became extremely irritable and actually entered a trance like state. This is very common with low blood sugar. He really had no clue as to what he was doing. The answer was simple. Feed him little and often to keep his sugar levels stable! His 'aggression' disappeared completely! Smile
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kendal
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:


I wanted to give you an example of an aggression case I was asked about during my course work.

This dog was 8 years old, a mongrel, rescued 10 months ago, owners are retired and take the dog walking a lot. The problem was that dog was displaying 'sofa aggression'. The dog would sit beside the owner on the couch and growl, snarl and often snap at him. What do you think could be causing this? I was confused....everything about the dog was great apart from this.

My tutor explained that this dog was actually hypoglycemic! The little dog was only getting fed once a day and exercising lots. His blood sugar levels fell so low at night when he was curled on the couch that he became extremely irritable and actually entered a trance like state. This is very common with low blood sugar. He really had no clue as to what he was doing. The answer was simple. Feed him little and often to keep his sugar levels stable! His 'aggression' disappeared completely! Smile



when we take our dogs on long walks(im sure you will have red about some of our exscursons) we bring food for them, i would have said that this dog was being fed far to early in the day for it to have worn off by the night.
my two are fed once a day after there last walk off the day(also meaning that they are hungry and keen to recall when off lead )
i see no reason why a dog should need to be fed so often during the day except when they are puppys, larger dogs are a different matter they physically need too have two meals. so yes i would agree that food was the problem but but the solution is in accurate in my opinion.
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shirley c
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the links on this site I was reading and the start of it was 'The big watershed in dog training is whether or not to include pain and fear as a means of motivation'

No I dont think pain and fear are the way forward but all the softly softly aproach wont always work. I think dogs need dicipline and no i dont mean a good beating with a big stick or whatever, but they know when they have crossed the bounderies they are going to get a 'punishment' and to me this article I like from this woman makes complete sense to me



I am not into namby pambying around dogs, specially ones like Ridgebacks...my mum gave one of her pups to 1 of my aunts years ago when she was breeding them 1st time around...my aunt who had no idea how to keep a dog in line and let this dog walk all over her, they couldnt get it off furniture and off beds ets and this dog ruled the house with iron teeth....the dog was put down as he bit loads of folk, my mum had a brother from the litter and a sister and had no such problems
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stephanie

Im the guy with the West Highland Terrior. Buster was an aggressive dog who when he first came to class at kirkintiloch barked the place down when he did he was soaked with water and every week i seemed to get wetter with no sign of buster shutting up he was then man handled into positions he didn't want to be in and then finally bit the instructor for trying to push him into a down position which clearly hurt and i don't particularly blame him. That's ruling with an iron fist. As a last chance attempt i went to Cumbernauld dog training and it was being in class around other dogs with the guidance of John that he started to calm down and turn into a dog that i actually like he now goes on walks with the club off lead with other dogs has a great time and has been more contented now than he ever has. None of this would have been possible without the help of John and many others at the club and none of their advice would have worked if i hadn't addressed the order of the pack. It saved buster from the pound
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:

This dog was 8 years old, a mongrel, rescued 10 months ago, owners are retired and take the dog walking a lot. The problem was that dog was displaying 'sofa aggression'. The dog would sit beside the owner on the couch and growl, snarl and often snap at him. What do you think could be causing this? I was confused....everything about the dog was great apart from this.

My tutor explained that this dog was actually hypoglycemic! The little dog was only getting fed once a day and exercising lots. His blood sugar levels fell so low at night when he was curled on the couch that he became extremely irritable and actually entered a trance like state. This is very common with low blood sugar. He really had no clue as to what he was doing. The answer was simple. Feed him little and often to keep his sugar levels stable! His 'aggression' disappeared completely! Smile


I have read this thread with interest and there is much that I find "doubtful". This, however, makes perfect sense.
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