Cesar vid

[John Thomson]

Personally I love Cesar Milan and his style of training..........I know lots of people don't.
Like this clip dealing with a dog aggressive GSD............


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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[linsey]

that's brillaint!

I think we should all have on of those toys tho!
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Dogs are the leaders of the planet.
If you saw two living creatures, one of them does a poo and the other carries it for him, who would YOU think was in charge?
- Laurence Billi

[graceb]

Great clip, I'm now going to be up all night watching the rest of the clips
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Grace & Dexter

[colin]

I find Buddy's 'focus' tends to be my slippers - typically when I am still wearing them

[Jack]

Good clip that - I like OJ.

I struggle to like Cesar. I know he knows what he's doing, has a great connection with dogs and it cannot be disputed he gets results but from what is shown on his programmes he takes too many risks for my liking such as when he introduces dominant aggressive dogs to his pack of 30 plus dogs in his pound. The programme has never shown it all go wrong and I hope it never has and never will but that's just what I wait for to happen (yeah I know I'm soft as butter sometimes!) I know Cesar has a huge army of fans and some of what he does and ALL that he achieves I think is fantastic but I know there's a lot of idiots out there without his skill or intuition that will try and fail miserably to replicate what he does and that is the biggest problem I have with what is shown on his programmes. I know the disclaimers appear but idiots take no notice of that. I'll never knock the results he achieves, they absolutely cannot be disputed and even though I'm not a huge fan I am very glad he is out there to help dogs that would otherwise face destruction.

My personal favourite trainer I have seen is Mic Martin from Dog Borstal and I also rate Victoria Stilwell very highly. Both achieve fantastic results but employ less "risky" (to those copying) techniques. That said I did watch one programme with Victoria in where she was helping an American Bulldog that I did feel would be better suited to Cesar's skills you could see her trepidation of the dog and frankly I don't blame her as it was incredibly large, territorial and very nearly completely out of control aggressive. She'd have stood no chance if it had turned - if I could see it then you can be damned sure the dog sensed it and fed off it. She still achieved some success - a massive improvement actually but that dog was still nowhere near as under control as it should be in my opinion. With Mic and Cesar, much as I'm not his biggest fan, I think the results would have been much more marked.
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[John Thomson]

Jack,

our dog training is a bit different from most in that we get out on a daily basis and walk dogs as a pack.......largest group was 34 dogs.

We get two distinct type of people attending class.those with a new puppy and those who have a dog that they are having problems with or have taken on a rescue that they are having problems with.

we have found that walking then in a pack increases confidence in shy dogs and dominant dogs find they are not as overly confident when walking in a large group......our 'pack' has a well defined structure to it...fascinating to watch the different personalities interacting.

There is the occasional scuffle but actual contact is very, very rare.........almost always rank issues are sorted quickly and easily by simple body posturing.

I am sure that all who walk will tell you that the dogs learn more social skills walking than the do in an obedience class.
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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Jack]

John,

I know there's no doubting his results at all. There is also no doubting your ability as regards the methods you employ and the success you have enjoyed with your dogs both owned and those you help train. I completely take your point with the whole pack thing too - I can see the evidence as you have posted on your vids and pictures of walks section that all the dogs are happy and secure and most importantly cared for and safe.

I guess I'm just more than a little overcautious because of the breed of dog I have. I know what they are capable of if they snap and would hate to see any harm come to any creature, whether it was my own or one they took against so I AM wary of any dog "squaring up" to another whether it's just posturing or not it sounds horrific - it's way out of my personal comfort zone - I'd rather avoid than deal with a confrontation. ALthough I know I am more than capable of coping with a confrontation if and when it happens as it has on more than one occassion when I've been out with my lot and on NO occassion did my dogs start anything at all - it was others, their dogs out of control, that caused the confrontations. I & Mark ended them. No harm came to any dog but it was only because Mark and myself prevented it (my thread on Druridge Bay over on our site will tell you a bit more, don't want to bore everyone). The other persons dogs were completely and utterly out of control and their owner did NOTHING, not a single thing, didn't even TRY to recall them. I was furious but had I let my mouth go at him, which I dearly wanted to do, I would have lost that control and there would have been carnage

Sorry anyway, back to the point. I don't dispute his methods get results, nor do I doubt his instinct with dogs - there can be no disputing them I'm just not his biggest fan - he's got enough of those already . I'd like to stress I don't dislike him, I just prefer a mix of methods and less confrontational. I'd rather see an aggressive dog kept at a safe distance under intensive training whilst in sight of other dogs slowly exposing the dog with the problem to closer contact than the in the face confrontation Cesar goes for....I KNOW it works for him I know it works for the dogs it's ME it doesn't work for, sorry, it's just my personal preference and opinion, no offence intended.
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[John Thomson]

Jack,

believe me we do always err on the side of caution.....I have no desire to get in between fighting dogs.......we all only want the best for our dogs.....you are right that your chosen breed is less tolerant of other dogs than most others.

i know that some of the dogs you see on the Ben Lomond video are completely different now through the sheer hard work and determination of their owners.........in particular look for the white GSD dodge.......one of the most dominant, dog aggressive dogs I have come across...has had several homes and before Kirsty took him on GSD rescue wanted him to live out his live in kennels as he was 'not fit to be re homed'......now I am not going to tell you he is an angel.......but whilst in our 'pack' he lives by the rules.....you will see him happily running amongst them........if an outsider approaches the pack he is the first to stand and defend the rest.

I like Cesar's thoughts on exercise, discipline then affection and think this is where a lot of people go wrong with their dogs, a well walked dog is a happy one and walking in a pack is as much a mental exercise as it is a physical one.
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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Jack]

John,

It is 100% clear to me that you all love and well care for your dogs and I have to confess I did watch Dodge closely on the vid. He belongs to kirsty doesn't he? I've seen his pic on the avatar and sussed that he is one helluva alpha dog. Something about the eyes with alpha dogs, dunno if others see it Anyway I took a keen interest in him because of the threads I have read so I was ever the moon with him and impressed by you all because you will all have played your part in helping him. I take my hat off to everyone of you involved especially kirsty for the hard work you have put in and the dedication she has shown in saving and helping him be all that he can be. I don't think for a second that it has been easy nor do I doubt that it's safety first for yourselves and the dogs. There is no way a forum like this could exist and you have the support and respect of your friends and pupils if you took risks. I do hope it didn't at any stage seem like I was implying that you did take risks because that was not my intent. If I'd meant it that believe me I'd have said, I'm not one for mincing my words if I have something to say (must be the Staffie in me )

You're right my chosen breed that I completely adore, whilst having numerous fantastic qualities, has that one man made problem that it can be incredibly hard, in some cases completely impossible to overcome. Sometimes JUST when you think you have cracked it.....out it comes again. Which is why I always err on the side of caution and why I will always do my utmost to keep my own dogs and therefore others safe. Mine are ALWAYS leashed when out with me unless I can see there's no other dogs, foxes etc around. It's a necessity to make 100% sure. Maybe they would surprise me and react well but I don't think so and I don't want to push it and put it to the test I would never forgive myself if something bad happened that I could have prevented. Staffs have their own little quirks, after 20 years of living with and loving them I have discovered the absolute best way to get the best from them is consistency and love. They NEED boundaries, they NEED exercise but they also need lots of love, you'll get the absolute best from them with more gentle training than say a GSD best responds to - who I know needs LOADS of excercise and very firm discipline. Some of the techniques such as "rolling" that are favoured with training with larger breeds can be completely counter productive with Staffs if done wrong. If you do it in what I would term as play mode you get a hugely different response than if you do it in a no nonsense disciplined way. The former I adopt with my dogs, the latter was adopted by a trainer my friend and neighbour took her Staffie to over 5 years ago. Bruno was so traumatised by the handling of that trainer, which was not only trying to dominate it was done with aggression and force and the dog was hurt, because he didn't "get" Staffs that it broke him. Bruno turned big style, was banned from class and became ever more aggressive over the following 4 years. Sadly it got to such a level that they had no alternative but to put him to sleep. Having a dog headbut and break through a fence in one go to get at a dog playing in a neighbouring garden with a small child was the last straw. Bruno didn't get to the dog or the child who thankfully had the time to get to safety but with my friend having a 3 year old child to consider she just couldn't keep him any longer. In all honesty because of Ella I couldn't take him on, in any event I didn't find out the full story until it was too late. Bruno would have benefitted from the correct training from the outset, by the time I met him the damage was done. He was always a boisterous boy but had ONLY gone to the training sessions to help socialise him with other dogs as he had the natural tendencies all Staffs have he'd never been overtly aggressive until that day. My friend has been unable to forgive herself ever since for her decision. The reason he was "rolled"? Because he refused to have a harness put on him. Anyone who knows Staffies, particularly red ones will know that their legs can be stiff and painful and they don't like them being forced into a harness. The trainer TRIED to force him into the harness, when Bruno resisted (by trying to get away NOT by biting or snarling) the trainer lay on top of him (2 of them actually) and tried to force his legs into it "rolling" him at the same time trying to dominate but succeeding only in hurting him and so completely traumatising him.

Sorry I'm a bit passionate about this. I liked Bruno and wished I could have helped but like I say by the time I met him his aggression was deep seated, permanent blue glaze to his eyes and aggressive posturing, biting HARD upon greeting you - much as I adore this breed I have to say he was not suitable to have around children or other animals at the point I met him. Had there been no children in the mix he would have stood much more of a chance. Because of his aggression AND the huge number of non-problem Staffies needing re-homing various shelters refused to take him.

My friend has since got a boxer who she adores but who is a tad too exhuberant. I'll be helping her with him so if anyone has any tips at all regards boxers please let me know. Staffs I can handle no problem but boxers, whilst still dogs I know, may have quirks I should take into account that I'm not aware of. We'll be concentrating on basic training, on and off the lead, recall and getting him to focus on commands given as at the minute he's still in the puppy "I want to play and ignore you" phase. I'm not a trainer, I couldn't handle a class but I can handle the one on one training my friend needs help with. She's asked me because, in her opinion, she feels 100% at ease with me and my abilities with dogs - she's seen how my brood behave first hand and is impressed that someone as teeny as me can maintain control. Frankly all she needs is confidence and the right pointers so if you can offer me any help to help her, specific to boxers, I would hugely appreciate it.

Sorry about long post, I got a bit carried away there
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk