Prong/Pinch collar

[kirsty]

Sam,

I suppose like us humans on humans, dogs cant like every other dog they meet.

[kendal]

this is probably a silly question but I'm curios, i hear people talk about how they have tried the prong collar on there arm and saying that you only feel presser and not pain, (hear comes the silly bit) has any one ever tried it on there own neck to see how it is from the dogs prospective.

i must add i am in no way knocking the collar as i have seen how it work and the difference in the dogs, it was just something one of my friend asked (as i am always talking about the club) and i couldn't answer .

John Marcella i know your two have many years left in them, but if you were ever to get another pup at what age would you introduce the prong collar. how old where your two when you first used the collar on your boys.
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microchiping and grooming www.chipnclip.co.uk

[marcella]

Kendal, there is no age where either of us would consider introducing a prong collar as such ............ it's simply a case of introducing one if we have issues with the dog pulling on a half check. We have ALWAYS used half checks but GSDs being GSDs are very prone to wanting walk ahead of you given the chance.
These two are the first dogs that we have used prongs on, and I'll tell you now I wish to god we'd learned about them sooner.
Our last GSD bitch was terrible for pulling on the lead, so much so that John had serious back ache. I watch him try to take her a walk and he would take ages because he would stop walking every time she pulled, he'd turn the opposite way etc etc all the tricks you'd try rather than yanking at the lead (which never ever worked with a half check anyway). The same dog also dragged Emily down the street when she saw a cat..... thankfully with no damage to Em but she got a fright!
Anyway, as I mentioned before the final straw was when Diesel snapped a halti, we'd tried those too and I hate them with a passion. The dogs also disliked them. When they saw us lift them out they wouldn't come to get their lead on, but with the prongs they run over and get excited because they know it's walk time.

I simply do not view a prong as a 'last resort' nor do I view it as a cheats way out, but I see it as a painless way of walking our dogs (for all of us!!!!) and peace of mind when you own a large breed than can very easily call the shots if given half a chance!
My dogs are happy boys, they don't have bald bits on their necks where the half check used to wear their hair away, they have no 'choking' issues when going out a walk and they won't pull any of us off our feet.
Happy bunnies all round.

[John Thomson]

Dogs stir up emotions in all of us......we care passionately about them or we would not spend so much time caring for and talking about them.

A subject that stirs up emotion more than most is that of prong/pinch collars.

One reason why this forum is turning into a success is that we do not have any hidden agenda. We do not try to sell anything, we do not have any taboo subjects when it comes to discussing our dogs.

However I firmly believe that anyone should be able to voice their opinion with out the fear of personal attack or bullying by other members on the forum simply because of their views on a subject.

I have updated the Forum Rules please take the time to read them again. The updates are for the benefit of everyone and I urge everyone to adhere to them.......if you don't like the rules......you are in the wrong forum.

I would like now to deal simply with facts.

Fact: everyone on our forum cares about their dog or dogs and only wants what is best for them. An example of this is my choice of feeding.....lots of people condem a raw diet..........it would be easy to buy dog food from Tesco which is within walking distance for me but instead I drive half way across the country and sit in a car park with other like minded people waiting on a food delivery that is invariably late...sometimes 2 hours late.
This I feel indicates how much my dogs well being means to me.

Fact: any and all means of tethering, controlling or correcting your dog is open to abuse.
This includes the use of voice,flat collar, half check chain, full check chain ( aka. choke chain), halti, body harness, prong/pinch collar, electronic collar.

Fact: all of the above have specific applications where there use is correct and justified.

Fact: prong/pinch collars look like a torture implement

Fact: most people decide prongs are bad simply because of the way they look without ever reading or doing any research into them.

Fact: they are not illegal in the UK........the Kennel Club are against their use.

Fact: The UK military use prong collars.....this is the last chance many dominant aggressive dog have before being destroyed.

Fact: despite the way they look, used properly they are actually extremely humane. Several studies done into the damage that is caused by a full check ( choke chain) have proved this..

Fact: the 'correct' collar for any given dog depends on a huge number of factors....what is right for one dog is not right for another.

Fact: The vast majority of dogs do not and never will need anything more than a flat collar.

Fact: whatever correction is being used with a dog should be the minimum required to get the dog to comply........when Murphy is focused on me he will move from the 'present' position in front of me to the 'heel' position simply when I move my eyes to the left to indicate what I want him to do next....if he does not I will quietly give a 'circle' command.....if he does not I will growl a 'circle ' command.....if he does not I will place my hand on his collar , correct him gently............you get the idea......the minimum that is needed.

Fact: The level of correction needed to get a dog to comply depends on the levels of distraction at the time........there is no point whispering the word 'come ' when you dog is 100 metres away.......like wise if someone else's dog is attempting to kill yours you would want the owner to quickly administer an appropriate correction to stop you dog getting killed.

Fact: only a small percentage of dogs would ever need a prong collar

Fact: only a small proportion of dog handlers are capable of using and not abusing a prong collar.

Fact: Prong collars are not an easy fix that when fitted to a dog will instantly cure problems.....they are simply a tool that can be used to help train your dog.

Fact:to get your dog to respond to any command you need to have their attention.

Fact: we have all seen manic dogs straining at the leash seemingly oblivious to their owners voice commands or leash corrections....this type of dog can benefit from the correct use of a prong...it is simply a toll that will interrupt your dogs train of thought and get them to focus on you.

Fact: until you have exhausted all avenues to modify your dogs unwanted behavior I believe you should not use a prong collar.

Fact: prong collars should NEVER be used on young dogs or puppies

Fact: the behaviour of dominant dogs is such that they will ignore voice or even heavy leash corrections.......this is where a prong excels in getting their attention...........things more quickly from a situation where the dog can ignore any correction you give it to one where you have it's undivided attention and can again begin to train it and mould it in to the dog you want.



I know that some people will never understand why I or anyone else would use a prong........this is always because they have never been in a situation where a prong was possibly needed.

I am very careful who I recommend the use of a prong to....as I say they are certainly not for everyone.

As for Kirsty and Dodge..well I have nothing but admiration for both of them and I am certainly proud to have played a small part in his rehabilitation.

Kirsty works with GSD rescue.........no one wanted Dodge.......even the rescue people tried to talk Kirsty out of taking him............the Police even said no to him.

When she got him he was aggressive towards everything..........dogs, people, cats.........everything. He simply was not even aware that Kirsty was trying to correct him.........in his rage he felt nothing......it was as if Kirsty wasn't even there. He was muzzled at all times when outside the house.....her neighbours were wary to say the least.
This was her situation only 10 months ago.

Kirsty would have tried anything but when I suggested a prong and showed her the collar I could see the colour drain from her face..........I could never put that on him was the reply....anyway after I loaned her a spare prong she tried it and both her and Dodge have never looked back. Very quickly Dodge realised that the balance of power had shifted, the prong meant that Kirsty for the first time could command his attention.
GSD rescue were horrified when she told them she was using a prong collar......I don't know what their opinion is now?

I hope this made some sense
_________________
John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Sheryl]

PERFECT SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kindest Regards,
PRINCESS Sheryl, Keano and Coby.

[Janice]

John that was a really useful and interesting post about prong collars. I'd never even heard of them until I saw them at the club.
What you said about Dodge amazed me. Kirsty said there had been problems but meeting him now you'd never guess his history. It's so encouraging to see what can be achieved. Dodge is a very lucky dog to have found such a good home.
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Janice and Dale

[kirsty]

John

GSR have never changed their opinion on the collars and we have agreed to disagree on the issue.

Why I don't know!

my two main contacts have each up to 8 rescue dogs at a time and I know some of them are a nightmare, at the worst end of the spectrum of abuse and neglect, to the extend they could never have been homed into a regular home environment and need very specialist work and handling.


One of the contacts is about 5ft nothing and very slight and I have seen her trying to control one of her dogs it was torture.

She came out to help me with dodge and she had absolutely no chance of making him walk to heel or even controlling him to any degree - he does not like to be handled by strangers or forced to do anything he does not want to do even by me , her being so slight, him being so strong - It was completely distressing the prong would have been perfect in this situation

She has been to Jan Fennels training week - Ceasars methods are definitely more appropriate to aggressive/dominant dogs. But she is a huge Jan Fan!

A prong collar would just be perfect for her - but she wont even consider it. - her loss.

This is not meant to be a criticism - she is one of my idols for the work she does with dogs - but she could make her life a lot easier if she would just give the collar a go.

[shirley c]

I am not on to say prong collars are great and why not everyone use one, that would not be right but here is an article by a very good american trainer and even if you just read it for the information it may give some more info if you dont want to go by just what John and Kirsty say.

Read some of the other articles on the site, I like the 'he just wants to say hi' one too

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

[John Thomson]

Shirly,
I agree with you 100% I never make a decision for my dogs based on what one person tells me......I correlate as much info as I can to allow me to make an informed decision that is right for me and my dogs..........no one can decide what is best for you dog except you..... .the owner. I always encourage people to find out as much as they can about any subject.
_________________
John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Lindy]

WOW I have just read that article Shirley and it's really good, and it backed up my feelings about Dora my JRT it described Terriers as being very desensitive to correction such as with a flat collar or voice because of their breeding they must be focused and not react to bites fromk prey or nips/cuts from the environment around them, I have tried everything with her from sitting on the pavment when she pull and trying to get her to realise we go nowhere till it stops, correcting with a light pull on her collar and a voice command "heel" and nearly pulling her off her feet with a voice comman, harnesses, halties (which she hates and can get even the smallest size off by rubbing her face which worries me as she might hurt herse;f) non have made any difference she just very dominante and focused. John suggested I try the prong on one of our evening walks and the difference with NO correction or pressure from me was amazing she walked next to me the whole walk, she wasn't sure about it to start biut relaxed and enjoyed her walk, again on Monday he let me try it on her and she was as perky as always with her ears forward and trotting along quite the thing. Now I hope to got her to the stage where I only need it in certain situations like the woods where the rabbits are, this will be the most effective tools for me to correct this behaviour as I have exhuated every other method.

Lindy

[kirsty]

Great article Shirley - I must have a look at how I am using my collar. I tend to use it on a single ring - thanks