Advice needed please

[Margaret]

Lucy has been having some problems since an incident on Thursday night when she was chased by 2 GSDs in Palacerigg. After her usual ducking and diving, she couldn't shake them off so she bolted, and to cut a very long story short, I didn't get her till 1.30am so she had been on her own for 6 hours. When I first caught sight of her, I immediately thought I had made a mistake as it looked more like a cat or something. It wasn't until an hour or so later that I was sure it was Lucy, but a terrified version with her ears straight back, no tail visible and walking very close to the ground sniffing like her life depended on it. It took her some time to recognise me, but she did eventually and we had a joyous reunion.
She's now a bit unpredictable with other dogs - sometimes friendly (though cautious) but other times snarling. She also growled at some young kids yesterday she usually enjoys playing with. At times she appears to be scared even of Freddy and is now jumping on the chairs to get away from him, and she seems to prefer being in her crate with the door closed as she feels safe there. The last 2 nights she has insisted on sleeping in the puppy crate which she can barely fit in to - she can't stand up properly or even lie stretched out. She is also barely eating and will not even look at food or treats unless I give them in her crate with the door closed (and I'm often on the floor beside her encouraging her). This morning on our walk she was quite jumpy at any noises.
So how do I get my Lucy back? I won't be bringing her to class today as I don't think she would cope too well, but I'm dithering whether it would be beneficial for her to continue with the group walks, or is it too early for this and would it set her back even further?
Any advice welcome.

[carlyn p]

sorry to hear about what happened to Lucy you must have been so worried, I know i was when i lost Cooper and it was for less than an hour. You could try her on the group walk as it's with dogs and people she is used to, hope she gets back to her old self soon.
Carlyn Cooper & Molly

[alice and susan]

Hi Margaret

Hope you are all feeling a bit better ,...hope to see you on the Tuesday night walk and we will all help bring Lucy`s confidence back...treats and cuddles galore

Alice
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Alice & Susan & Princess Tia

[Laura-Anne]

What an awful experience for you and little Lucy. I think keeping her current routine is the best thing you can do. As you know Totts is a very very nervous dog. Because she gets scared I will do the little cooing voice trying to convince her to come because im trying to get her to come on her own accord but tbh in a lot of situations when I take charge and just say right enoughs enough your doing it I do tend to get the best response from her, maybe not initially but she is getting there, she is more confident maybe 60% of the time now wheras before she had no confidence or trust at all. Its just trying to find the balance of not pushing her too far. Totts needs a constant leader and I think thats why she leans more to Muffin than me, Muffin is consistent with her and I totally fail at that because I feel sorry for her. (worlds most silly dog owner right here lol know all my faults yet continue them just the same)

I would keep bringing her to the walks but maybe put a long line on her just in case she takes a funny turn so shes still undercontrol. Lucy's a fiesty little thing im sure she'll bounce right back thats just what I would do could be totally wrong.
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[Margaret]

Thanks to everyone here and at class for advice. It's really cutting me up seeing her like this, bearing in mind how outgoing and friendly she had become. I took her to the park this morning on a long line, but the first dog she saw she ran up and started her barking and snarling before I could reel her in. Fortunately for her it was a lovely natured old grey haired dog who couldn't have cared less, and the handler was very understanding. I'm now thinking no more parks for now, just do local walks and I'll be using her prong collar again to improve control.
On the positive side, she slept in her own bed last night and is playing better with Freddy this morning, so there's some signs of improvement.
Alice I think the puppy walks are a good idea - we might not make it this week depending on how she is, but hopefully by next week.

[Alan and Lynsey]

Hi Margaret,

sorry to hear this news.

in my experience with GSD's attacking your dog the best thing to do is NOT to isolate her, Meg was attacked by a GSD down the glen and she was caught and swung from left to right, i then jumped on top of her to protect her from any more harm. i know the owner of the GSD and i know she was as shocked as me. once i got meg to calm down and stop screaming and once i had composed myself i continued the walk. close to finishing the walk i decided that i did not want this to effect meg and change her personality because she is a great dog and would not hurt a fly. so i walked side by side with the GSD that just attacked meg, putting them side by side and me being confident helped i think. she is ok round GSD dogs but still keeps her distance from the one that attacked her.

i done the same thing as you, i removed MEG from walks and even from coming to class, this was wrong by me. I would try and socialize with known good/calm dogs. possibly starting off with Laura's puppy walks on a Tuesday would be good. i also think if Lucy is happy in the cage then maybe buy a bigger one for her. my two love there cages it is a safe place for them to go.
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Cheers,

Alan, Lynsey, Meg, Peanut and new arrival Bella

[Margaret]

Thanks for that Alan.
That makes good sense, though I don't think I'd be as confident as you walking with GSDs I don't know. Lucy knows John's dogs and doesn't have a problem with them, so hopefully she'll be ok when we're back on the walks. The only reason we haven't attended the classes or walks since then is that she's become very defensive and is snapping and snarling at other dogs, but I've started taking her out on her own using the prong collar so that she knows I'm in control and will check any misbehaviour, so hopefully this will help.
She does have her own larger crate, but was choosing to use the pup's very small one since this happened, and he was then having to use hers, however as I said earlier, she went to her own bed last night, so fingers crossed!

[Margaret J]

right how to start this post ???

well for starters i would like to say that there is a lot of information missing from Margaret's and Alan's posts and i am struggling to decide which of them to answer first ?????

i think i will start with Margaret's as this was the most recent event>>>>>
for starters Margaret has recently joined a group of responsible dog walkers that i walk with at least 5 times a week.. some of you will know most of them ... so they were not out of control manic dogs running will around palacerigg!!! and she is short on details on how much effort everyone involved put into looking for her dog!!!

the 2 GSD's in question are my friend's and they are young dogs 1 not 2 yet and the other just turned a year!!! they are playful fun dogs like all pups/young dogs..

might i point out that this is only the second time you have walked with us in the group and on the first walk i spoke to you and advised you to keep your dog on lead until she was comfortable with the group and the dogs accepted her....

(i want to point out unfortunately that i was not on this walk but i was called as soon as it had happened and asked to come out and look for lucy!!)

both Lucy and the Shepherds were off lead and the 2 Shepherds were playing and as it goes they began to involve Lucy she didn't like Margaret was asked to call her in and Heather called back her 2 but Lucy took off!!! unfortunate but there was no aggression as far as i believe and there was no physical harm to Lucy ...

this happened at the beginning of the walk at 7pm and the group walking with Margaret split up to look for Lucy one woman even walked out through Palacerigg to Abronhill as it was indicated that that was the direction Lucy headed !!!

the rest searched the park for her but to no avail... they ended the search nearing 10pm during this time Brenda had called around to rally more people to look and as darkness fell we decided if she had not been found by morning then we would meet up without our dogs incase that was keeping her in hiding and restart the search!!!

However, Heather and her partner went home dropped off their dogs and headed out again heather drove around the surrounding area and Chris armed with a torch headed back up Palacerigg!!!!

Chris came across Lucy in the car park at 11:30 and called Heather to come up with treats as she wouldn't come to him..

heather contacted Margaret (who was so worried about her dog out on her own was at home ..) to say they had spotted her in the car par she kept running off into the bushes not scared more like she was hunting something...

Margaret turned up and it took until 1:30am until Lucy who knew they were there eventually decided to come to Margaret and not in a cowering manner !!! in my experience if your dog is scared it will come to you and not run around you ....

the post from Margaret annoyed me as everyone involved put in a huge effort to find Lucy and Margaret, your post intimates that lucy was attacked!! by 2 random GSD dogs that you did not know....and there was no mention of the help given by the group.. and as i see it if it was up to you Lucy would have been out all night!!!! as it turns out she was returned physically uninjured i cannot comment on her emotional state !!! but i did not see her as a confident outgoing dog on the first walk, which is why i advised lead walking in the first place....!!!!







Now as for the ATTACK on Meg !!! well that was my dog and Alan has mistakenly forgotten to add that she was pregnant at the time, which does change a dogs behaviour. i was not aware of the pregnancy as i had had 3 separate tests!!! which is why i did not expect a change in her behaviour. during this particular walk she had bother with another dog nipping her but thats just the norm in a pack walk which is how i took it!!! but it would have contributed to her behaviour.

we walked regularly with the club when John use to organise walks and i have never had an incident with any of my dogs "attacking" other dogs....

and she Shook Meg not swung her off her feet ... not that i condoned it i punished her severely...!!!! but meg was Physically unharmed there were no puncture marks/wounds so i take offence to your suggestion that she is an aggressive dog that would attack without provocation!!!!!

in terms of keeping her distance from the one that "attacked" her, we finished for xmas holidays after the walk at the glen as it occurred last December and since then i have seen Meg at class once ..

on this occasion Breagha was as it turned out 2 days from giving birth to her 10 pups and i brought her in to see janis.. you brought meg over at that point and i didn't think this a great idea as Breagha was heavily pregnant... Meg was not up for being next to Breagha but she did eat a treat out of the same hand at the same time as her ... so she couldn't have been that scared of her maybe she just sensed the impending birth!!!

since then they have had no contact in or out of class!!!


i must apologise to everyone for the long rant but i think it is unfair to tell part of a story especially when it makes someones dogs look like aggressive beasts!!!! many of you at class know me and my dogs well ... however, many of you don't ... so i do not take kindly to being made out to be a handler of aggressive dogs even if not named in the post ...

i do not wish to get into a tit for tat argument especially on John's forum but just could not let either of these posts go unanswered !!!

[Alan and Lynsey]

I think you will find up to my wedding in June myself and meg were still attending classes. FACT!!!!!

i on the other hand have not seen you!!

i was not having a dig in my earlier post Margret but it was a SWING not a shake and i have a few other owners that will agree with that. in fact i didn't even want to mention names earlier

the facts that you mentioned have no real impact on this post anyway, the post is about how you get your dog back to normal after an attack, NOT if the attacking dog is pregnant or if the attacking dog is only 1 or 2 etc. the facts the i talked about was just a brief description not an in depth news article, plus my post was to help another owner and tell them what i had done. again none of your facts were really needed.

an attack is an attack period. even if you are a great handler or a crap handler it can happen to anybody.

Alan

[lesley]

In response to the first post, alfie had a scare a few months ago. the dog did no damage but came over playfully then changed its mind and jumped on top of him. i think in a normal dog it would have had no impact, as it wasnt attacking him as such, just being a bit rough,but alfie is a bit of a wuss at the best of times. the other dog grabbed the back of his neck but did no harm. He was definitely worse after that incident. not growling at other dogs but cowering from them. he would duck out the way when a dog came by. even now he will lie flat on his stomach when he sees a dog coming which is just what he does (tho depending on the dog when it gets there he will either roll on his back, or decide its ok after all and jump up to play) he doesnt cower at other dogs any more. i just tried to walk him past other dogs as much as possible (esp if it was a dog i knew was nice and calm) and got him to sit when it was coming using a treat or whatever and after it had passed we walked on then he got the treat. it took a while but he did settle tho this may have just been through time. (as for the lying flat and jumping around to play with other dogs instead of walking past, im still open to suggestions). hopefully she will settle back to normal over the next couple of weeks. i would suggest treating her as normal, not paying her attention when shes not settling at home/not eating etc. as this can reinforce the behaviour you dont want. and hopefully walks with a small number of dogs that you know are ok with her and keeping her on a lead to be on safe side to start with should get her on the right track??

[Janis]

not that i wish to antagonise anything here but i too was on the walk the day breagha had a go at meg and what i saw was breagha tug at the collar of meg's coat which understandably would have frightened her......she is a bigger dog than meg ........ and having similar sized dogs i also know 2 out of my three are complete diva's and squeal at the slightest thing when i know fine well they are ok .............but if out on a walk and a club member who is not used to them it can sound distressing that my dogs are in pain.......or if it is gypsy and inca that they are in full scale war with each other.
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Cockapoo's...a little of this, a little of that..........
the perfect combination!

[John Thomson]

Please keep ALL posts civil.

"Dogs will be dogs" and inevitably when a group of dogs are together certain 'personalities' clash.

To get back to the initial post in the thread the advice I would offer would be to get Lucy among other dogs as soon as is practical for both her and of course you Margaret. A leash and then long line would be a safe and secure way to have her around others dogs.
I believe keeping her away from dogs in the short term could be counter productive.

John
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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Alan and Lynsey]

Shock horror.

[Margaret J]

we will have to agree to disagree Alan .. on the nature of the incident with Breagha and meg your definition of attack is not the same as mine !!

and i feel if you are looking for advice it is important to give all the facts i.e this was an organised group walk Margaret had chosen to participate in and not just dogs she came across in Palacerigg!!

and in terms of seeing me!!!!! at class i have been there other than holidays and dealing with the litter !!!! i am sure we both have people who would agree with whether it was a swing or shake but the main point is there was no blood or physical harm!!!! and no vet treatment required in either incident..

i also feel it vital information for all to get an idea of how these things come about and ...... that they are not just random indents !! when you choose to walk in a pack you must be responsible for knowing how pack order, play and discipline works...

an attack is serious i agree completely however, there are also incidents that occur from general/normal dog behavior and interaction!!! or contributory factors which is what i was pointing out in my post...


attack is a strong word to use or to have a dog labeled as an attacker !!!!!! and sometimes the bare facts don't cover the whole incident and leave people with an altered picture...

i do not apologise for my post as i do feel it relevant..

[John Thomson]