Pack Order.......... The Basis of Dog Obedience

[Janis]

THAT'S QUITE A GOOD POINT...................CAN YOU PLEASE QUOTE SOME BOOKS FOLLOWING YOUR THEORY THAT WE COULD CHOOSE TO READ?

TITLE OR TITLE AND AUTHOR!
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Cockapoo's...a little of this, a little of that..........
the perfect combination!

[Anna]

I also completely disagree with what you are saying Stephanie, I think reading your posts was just a bit of a joke really. Personally if I found £50 on the street I would hand it into the police, not necessarily that someone would look for it there but it is the right thing to do and I feel that such rewards as a £50 should be earned!!

I have Tilly a little Westie who knows that her place is in her bed and not ours and I feel I get more respect from her this way, if I let her do what she liked she would turn into a spoiled little brat that wouldn't take a telling. You will one day realise this when you want Luna to do something and she will just ignore you realising that she can do what she likes. The pack order works for all of us and your posts are of no interest to me.
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[Emma*]

What a can of worms has been opened....i have to agree with John, Alan, Janis, Anna and anyone else i have missed who support pack leadership...
Skye came to me a nervous aggressive dog, with little commands and by personally using pack leadership she has become a calmer submissive dog/puppy going from 0% recall to near on 100% and now grasping basic commands( sometimes )

John has give me some very useful training tips based on pack leadership, which have all worked! I have also researched via books, DVDs and the Internet and stand by my decision to use these techniques.
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Happiness is being loved by 2 Great Danes

[John Thomson]

[kerry]

I totally agree with you john, but in my course some things mentioned in the other post were discussed( although not in depth) in my course, however our lecturer stressed that this was in itself a new theory into understanding dog behaviour, and some things make you think how it works, and new theories are always welcomed as your right, the pack order is a theory but with that it provides you with ways on how to work with your dog, but our lecturer was clear with 1 thing, all dogs when given the chance will revert back to pack order, now this might only be a slight hint of it or completely revert, but even the smallest of dogs have this trait in them.

Our lecture wasnt that indepth( crammed into an hour) infact this was a guest speaker who was doing a talk about wolves later on in the day about their reintroduction to scotland. so cant really comment more other. But it was interesting to hear a new idea on the matter
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We are forever responsible for what we have tamed

[Lorna]

Sorry, Stephanie I too disagree. I am now in my 60's. My grandmother bred Bedlingtons. My first Great dane was 43 years ago and I have owned and fostered many rescue dogs since then. I currently have 2 rescued Danes and a Beagle. I have been observing dog behaviour for over 60 years now. Many ideas have changed over that time but pack order works. With dogs which weigh over 70 kilos it is important that you can control them.
They do things because I like it. They want to please me. I am the boss. The are not allowed to do things they might like - rolling in poo, eating the garbage, sleeping on my bed... They are very happy dogs because they know the boundaries I have erected for them.
(Just like the pupils in my classes, John. I believe respect is the key.)
Within the dog rankings they know exactly which dog fits where.

As John says, when we walk with 20 or so dogs they very quickly establish the rank order. This order can be altered over time and as new dogs join. This can be observed any time we walk together - which is on a daily basis.
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Regards,
Lorna, Basil & Poppy
Great Danes are not substitute children. They are much more important than that!

[kendal]

[StuartW]

The thing I don't understand about this discussion is that 'pack order' exists throughout human and animal societies. It isn't just limited to dogs. Ask anyone who has spent time in jail (er, no I haven't BTW ) or in the army, at sea, at school, etc, etc. I'm not talking of the artificially constructed rank systems, but the peer to peer interaction that often transcends these systems.

There are very good reasons why the "theory" of pack order endures.. because it is straight-forward and has been demonstrated countless times. Asking for more proof than that is like asking an astronomer to proove that the sun will definately rise tomorrow!

I'd be interested to read your references though. Most folk on this forum will tell you that I don't mind playing devil's advocate

[Barry]

Hi Stephanie, welcome to the forum and thanks for taking the time to amend a couple of the rules etc asked when registering!
Unfortunately i have loads on this week and am making sure i spend little time on here this week, bl00dy place is so addictive! I do feel the need to post, as like most completely disagree with most if not all you have noted. As you mentioned you are entitled to your opinion and in turn, feeling so strongly, as you stated regarding this subject it would be great and most welcoming if you continued to take the time and answer some of the questions and queries various members have asked you regarding your theory. My take in simplified terms is this, your theory if nothing more, complicates matters, it complicates owning, reacting, treating and behavior's of your every day pet dog! People like simplicity, no not the f4nny pad! LOL, most things in life work when you simplify them! Making things simple can be the hardest thing to do, regardless of what we are dealing with, be it a dog and how they behave, or a sport you are trying to learn and develop and increase your level of skill or performance!? What i,m trying to say, and i know i,m waffling is, most dog owners understand pack order. Most have witnessed pack order. Most understand how to try and enforce. Its simple, not to enforce, but on its very own basis. Most owners as John mentioned have seen remarkable results, some when they thought they had no other route to follow! Our very own families have pack order! Adults are allowed to stay up late and watch movies, eat rubbish etc etc, if we choose that our kids are not, its because we are pack leaders 'head of the family, and basically we will decide, not them, so why wouldn't we filter this down to our dogs, whom i believe come AFTER any kids within a family home? Stephanie, your posts made for interesting reading, but don't add up, dogs are pack animals, and should always be treated like so, if not, i feel you could be building accidents waiting to happen, there would be little or no respect, and dogs would then CHOOSE which behavior they wished to display, obviously not a wise gamble, regardless of breed, size or who makes up your own family!
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Barry, Kylie & Jay with precious Rotti Tikka

[Stephanie21]

Hi everyone,

Clearly this topic could go on forever. It has been great reading what everyone's opinions are on this matter.

I have to say though that I dont appreciate being insulted by being called stupid. I have never once insulted or dismissed anyone. Everyone has the right to an opinion and I am trying to challenge ideas and find out how people view dog behaviour today. By saying that you wont read my posts again because you dont agree with what I am saying seems a bit childish. If you ignore everyone that doesnt share the same views as yourself then you will be a very lonely person.

I have tried my very best to answer questions as directly as possible. If anyone wants to ask me a specific question or get references etc then I think it would be best to message me, otherwise this debate will never end! lol

I would just like to answer Barry with my thoughts on what he has said. I know what I have said is more complicated than pack theory. And yes pack thoery is simple to grasp and easy to implement. That is the reason why I do not agree with it. Our dogs are very complex and experience a wide range of emotions. Therefore I believe we owe it to them to understand them as best we can. I know you may not agree with this but I just wanted to explain what I feel about this.

I used to be a believer in pack theory. Having dogs all my life, it was just what was accepted as true. When I started to find out that there were alternatives I was completely shocked! Believe me, it took a lot for me to change my views. But I can now say I am very happy with everything I have learned.

I have a very strong Newfoundland whom I never used pack order with. She is a wonderful and balanced dog. She listens to me and my partner. She has been a joy to own and train. I would like to say again that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for me to say why a dog was growling without a full consultation. A kennel environment is very different to a home environment and obviously treatment for any type of aggression depends on dog, environment etc.

I never said that their is not a complex heirarchy within a wolf pack. But to compare that so directly to dogs is like comparing our behaviour to that of a chimps! To me that doesnt make so much sense.

Again I would like to say that I have really enjoyed this discussion. I think it is great that John has a forum like this. It gives dogs owners the chance to talk to each other, which can sometimes be difficult.

[John Thomson]

Thanks for your response Stephanie.

I apologise on behalf of of the others if you felt offended by their response.

Please keep replies civil at all times!

I would agree that some dogs who are not pre dissposed to climbing up the pack order.......however a large number do. I would be interested in how you would approach training and working with a dog such as this?
I ask because I get a proportion of people who commence training because their dog hits adolescence and they cannot control it. Invariably when I visit the home there is a complete absence of pack order in the household, the dog has not boundaries or limitations in place hence takes over and does exactly what it likes. A dog in this kind of environment is clearly unhappy, out of control and potentially very dangerous.
I find people tend to pay their dogs too much attention and shower them with love and affection.........sometimes this results in a happy content dog.........more often than not , in my experience it results in a problem dog.

Like I said before there are several local dog training classes who refuse to take on a 'problem dog'
This is a link to an as yet unfinished webpage.........the stories here are as typed by the dog owners and are un edited http://www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk/testimonials.html

I believe 100% in pack order
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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Gaelle]

I am not giving opinions on the right or wrong of any theory, I just feel that there isn't one specific answer to all problems but based on what seems to work for most situations would appear to me to be the first port of call, then if that doesn't work , after giving specific time etc, try another tack. At the end of the day all that matters is your dog is well balanced, happy and safe to be around.
I too feel that everyone one has their own opinion and it does not matter if someone does not agree with you so long as you are all working toward the same goal.
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Happiness is watching my dog chase leaves dancing in the breeze.

[Stephanie21]

Hi John,

I really appreciate your reply With each individual dog I would adopt a training programme tailored specifically for it. eg. I would take a different approach with nervous dogs as to confident dogs. I am definitely not saying that dogs should not have boundaries. Of course you need to have that or the dog will simply become frustrated and act up. You see this happen with kids that have no parental control. Adolescent dogs are always testing their boundaries so this is a critical point on their development. Their hormones are fluctuating and this can cause numerous problems. My dog for instance has boundaries. Things she is and isnt allowed to do. I dont let her do something because I think she is trying to dominate me though. I just prefer, for instance, that she doesnt sleep on my bed because she's huge and hairy! I hope that makes sense

The basic approach I take when looking at any dog, or cat for that matter is a technique used to discover the emotions of the animal when displaying the problem behaviour. I also look at the dogs life as a whole. Is it getting enough stimulation? It is getting an outlet for all its innate behaviours? eg. is a terrier allowed to dig? That's it in a nutshell, of course there is more to it though.

I think why some dog training classes dont take on problem dogs is because they generally need one to one help. If they are in a class environment they can distract other dogs and it can sometimes make the problem behaviour worse. I would advise a problem dog to have private classes and if and when appropriate join a class when ready.

Thank you for your post Gaelle We are after all in the same boat and only want what is best for our dogs!

[kendal]

i apologies for my comment, i still believe that alot of what you are saying is over complicating the situation. yes dogs have feelings and emotions any dog owner will tell you that they can read there dogs emotions in its facial expression, and yes dog are smart sometimes to smart for there own good, leading to them working out how to control there owner. the whole point of training a dog is to teach it to make the choice to accept your leadership in the same way that they accept other dogs. i am luck to have two submissive dogs but they are both completely different one is keen to do what ever i ask of her and will do a number of different things if she is unsure of what i have asked, the other spends more time deciding whether the reward if worth the effort.

every dog need to be treated in a different ways but like with everything ells there are foundations and ground work that are all the same.

im sure bot yourself and john will agree that 9 times out of 10 it is the handler that is doing something wrong
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microchiping and grooming www.chipnclip.co.uk

[Louise13]

Anyone who doesn't beleive in pack order are welcome to come live with me and my Malamutes and see it action AND working
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