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Pack Order.......... The Basis of Dog Obedience
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Claire/Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread and views, but I must say if it wasn't for pack order in my household I don't think Mylo would still be with us today. We seen a HUGE change in our household when pack order was implemented and now Mylo is a more happier relaxed dog and doesn't feel the need to walk about the house 24/7 he actually lies down and relaxes..... I also see a huge difference in his aggression level since introducing pack order and think the way John train's the dogs and lets us read and understand pack order is just amazing. Also I was able to get a second dog Tara which I don't believe would ever have been an option if it was for the training classes and pack order Very Happy
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shirley c
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enid wrote:
Stephanie21 wrote:

This dog was 8 years old, a mongrel, rescued 10 months ago, owners are retired and take the dog walking a lot. The problem was that dog was displaying 'sofa aggression'. The dog would sit beside the owner on the couch and growl, snarl and often snap at him. What do you think could be causing this? I was confused....everything about the dog was great apart from this.

My tutor explained that this dog was actually hypoglycemic! The little dog was only getting fed once a day and exercising lots. His blood sugar levels fell so low at night when he was curled on the couch that he became extremely irritable and actually entered a trance like state. This is very common with low blood sugar. He really had no clue as to what he was doing. The answer was simple. Feed him little and often to keep his sugar levels stable! His 'aggression' disappeared completely! Smile


I have read this thread with interest and there is much that I find "doubtful". This, however, makes perfect sense.



I would agree every case isnt the same and there can be medical reasons for somethings not working out but I would say 9 times out of 10 its pck order disturbance. My mum kept 6 ridgebacks when she had the pub and when she was breeding them and she taught me a thing or 2 about pack order.

Pity she doesnt still follow it with Daka now though Very Happy
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you remove order....you are left with anarchy..........
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Claire/Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Thomson wrote:
If you remove order....you are left with anarchy..........


I would never remove pack order from my household as I have too happy dogs that you can see are relaxed/happy and enjoying there life. Very Happy
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kendal
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its like with every animal group even us humans we need order and discipline to function.
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Lisa/Colin
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Thomson wrote:
If you remove order....you are left with anarchy..........


I've been reading this thread with interest too, and although I am always open to new ideas on any aspect of my dogs I have to agree with Pack Order. I think you see hierarchies in EVERY aspect of life, whether subtle or more apparent and if there was no pack order in my home (kids and dogs!) life would be unbearable!! Shocked

I do not dominate my 8 month old Dane but he NEEDS to know that I am the boss and I need to know that he will do what he is told. I cannot have an out of control (50+kg and still growing) dog. This does not stop him having a lot of fun and enjoying his life.

When I get some time I will be reading the 'new' theory with interest Smile
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's great to see everyone's veiws on this. It really has got everyone talking. The reason the dog that was showing aggression had to be fed little and often was to keep his blood sugar levels stable. Of course not all dogs need to be fed like this but with this case it is better medically for the dog. Veterinary advice was sought, so it is definitely not inaccurate - it is a medical fact.
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Claire/Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:
It's great to see everyone's veiws on this. It really has got everyone talking. The reason the dog that was showing aggression had to be fed little and often was to keep his blood sugar levels stable. Of course not all dogs need to be fed like this but with this case it is better medically for the dog. Veterinary advice was sought, so it is definitely not inaccurate - it is a medical fact.


Do the vets do tests for this? I was never giving this option?
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the dog had not been on the sofa in the first place it would never have shown any aggression..........the only option Mylo was being offered was a needle Shocked ..........
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Thomson wrote:
If the dog had not been on the sofa in the first place it would never have shown any aggression..........the only option Mylo was being offered was a needle Shocked ..........


I wholeheartedly agree
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Claire/Mark
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly that's why I am shocked Shocked I did basically get told that I was mad for giving Mylo the second chance, but as it was my decision that's the one I made and am so glad as I would have been gutted to learn that a little pack order in the household goes a very long way if I had chosen the shocking option Shocked
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JayDee
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stephanie welcome to the forum, truly a baptism of fire for you!!Laughing

Sorry, maybe I missed something but this dog had an illness or disorder, yes?

What does that have to do with pack order?

The owners did as any responsible owner would, seek veterinary advice, and discovered this illness, therefore they reacted to the advice given to them and fixed the dog's problem.

If the point that was trying to be made was that everyone who believes in pack order should have (in theory) automatically thought "aah this dog is trying to dominate the owner" then I'm sorry Stephanie you have misunderstood everything that has been said to you about pack order.

I have tried to refrain from posting on this thread because I believe I have little experience in "problem dogs", however I have understood what you have being saying about your theory and I personally believe it sounds a little "hippie-like" to me. Also (and I understand this is as bad a sweeping generalisation as people who believe that all who believe in pack order are tyrants) it seems to me that this style of training is a bit of a cop-out, dogs that need the training most are not allowed to attend!!

I have watched the dogs interacting on our group walks... with no interference from owners and there is no doubt in my mind that these dogs walk as a pack, from my wee Cav Holly at the bottom to the middle dogs all trying to assert themselves within the group to the "top dog" who wanders the length of the group ensuring everyone is still with us (including the owners Laughing) if this is not evidence of pack mentality then I don't know what it is.
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I gave the example of the hypoglycemic dog was earlier on people were saying that the way I was looking at dog behaviour was too complicated. I thought this may show a different side. The dog in question was referred to a behaviour counsellor. We always take dogs on a veterinary referral so as to make sure there are no underlying health problems causing the behaviours. In this case I think the vet missed it so it was up to the behaviourist to spot this. One of the tutors teaching my course is a vet, so he has been able to put people right on a few matters.

I very much resent the hippie comment lol. I have studied extremely hard and the vast majority of my study is science based. It is not a thoery but has been researched, studied and analysed but many people involved in this area. If you talk to other people that do not believe in pack theory you will hear the very same thing said about the way you view things. A lot of people believe pack order is very much outed dated and hasnt got any scientific research behind it. All I can say to this is that everyone will find what suits them and what they believe and will stick to it.

It is impossible to share with everyone every single thing I have learned - especially when trying to explain something that is completely foreign. I would like to say that animal behaviour is very complex and always has been. There are many aspects that I have learned about and am still learning. I hope that some of you will perhaps take the time to read one of the books I have recommended and hopefully you can get a better picture of what I am trying to explain.

I get the impression that everyone seems to think I let my dog do whatever she wants and dont train her. Let me assure you that is not the case. Luna has set boundaries, she has been clicker trained all her life and knows numerous commands. She not be perfect but I am very happy with her. The main difference would be that I do not see her as trying to dominate me or climb her way up a hierarchy. Although a lot of people on here would see her as the classic dominate dog. I look at her behaviour in terms of what motivates her to do something and what reinforces it. The one fact that made me think twice about dominance was that only groups of conspecific animals (groups of ONE kind of animal) will have a hierarchy. Dogs do not see us humans as dogs and therefore cannot have the same kind of social interaction. Also the whole point of any dominance is to gain mating opportunities. I have never met a dog yet that wants to mate with me, or anyone else for that matter! We give our dogs everything they need e.g. food, water etc so they have no idea what so ever to establish a 'higher rank'.
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie21 wrote:

I get the impression that everyone seems to think I let my dog do whatever she wants and dont train her. Let me assure you that is not the case. Luna has set boundaries, she has been clicker trained all her life and knows numerous commands.

We give our dogs everything they need e.g. food, water etc so they have no idea what so ever to establish a 'higher rank'.


If you impose boundaries on your dog then this is pack order.........does your dog impose boundaries on you?
Who makes the house,walk,obedience rules?
If you control the dog by voice, body language or any other means to modify it's behaviour into something that you want you are imposing your rules on the dog.........you implementing order and a structure to your dogs life.

Whether you believe in pack order or not I think you will find that it does exist in your own home and in your relationship with Luna.

When you put 3 dog trainers in a room the only thing that 2 will agree on is that the 3'rd is wrong Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Magz
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Thomson wrote:
Stephanie21 wrote:

I get the impression that everyone seems to think I let my dog do whatever she wants and dont train her. Let me assure you that is not the case. Luna has set boundaries, she has been clicker trained all her life and knows numerous commands.

We give our dogs everything they need e.g. food, water etc so they have no idea what so ever to establish a 'higher rank'.


If you impose boundaries on your dog then this is pack order.........does your dog impose boundaries on you?
Who makes the house,walk,obedience rules?
If you control the dog by voice, body language or any other means to modify it's behaviour into something that you want you are imposing your rules on the dog.........you implementing order and a structure to your dogs life.

Whether you believe in pack order or not I think you will find that it does exist in your own home and in your relationship with Luna.

When you put 3 dog trainers in a room the only thing that 2 will agree on is that the 3'rd is wrong Laughing Laughing Laughing



Agree with you there John Very Happy
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