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Pack Order.......... The Basis of Dog Obedience
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Gaelle
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Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe an idea would be for Stephanie to come up and see exactly how you do things John and the two of you could have a long discussion face to face. It might give you both a clearer understanding of where the other is coming from and how you each implement it. Smile
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Lorna
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie, thank you for your thoughts. Your favourite theory is no more proven than any other animal behaviour theory. Logically you can not PROVE what is going on in any dog's mind. You cannot prove what is going on in the human mind. We can merely observe behaviours. Dog psychology theory has less scientific basis than human psychology due to its shorter history. I am a qualified Educational and Child Psychologist with over 20 years of practical application of various theories of behaviour. Peer pressure in human groups is well recognised just as the pack ordering of animal groups is. Alpha males are observable everywhere, god help us. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Perhaps you should observe the behaviour of the dogs we are referring to in our posts. Especially on walk off lead it would be obvious to an objective observer. Yo. ur scientific curiousity should be aroused.

I have in the past paid a great deal of money to a qualified dog behaviourist who adhered to your theory and I have to say the report and recommendations had little value or efficacy. On the other hand SGDR do have a dog psychologist who decides upon the ideal placements for our rescue Great Danes. She is a wonder-woman. She does however believe in pack ordering. My experience is therefore rather mixed. I have read the book you most recommend. I will be happy to review it in detail when I have more time. I will post my thoughts on it at a later time.
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have viewed and look into cases where pack ordering has been implemented and in my humble opinion it has just made me believe less in it. I think that actually when we talk about pack ordering we might be meaning slightly different things. It sounds a bit like that to me.

I am not trying to prove what is goin on in a dog's mind as such. It is simply what motivates the dog and why it behaves they way it does. I can assure you though that there have been more studies into dog behaviour and less and less people seem to be going down the dominance route. Of course saying that on here is probably going to be met with some doubt, but I have met more people who are non pack believers than are.

Yes there are groups of animals with hierarchies, but my belief is that dogs do not share this social structure. If you look into Coppingers book it explains how dogs evolved and this also explains why dogs dont assert dominance. Whether you chose to accept it or not is entirely up to you. If I have learned anything is that humans, dogs, cats and horses all behave it completely different ways. It would unfair to compare any to each other.

Actually a lot of my 'theories' have been proven and have scientific information to back it up. There is a wolf park down south that allows you to spend time with the wolves looking after them and observing their behaviour. If anyone goes down there I am sure you will see at least some of my points.

I dont think I can possibly say any thing else on this subject, otherise I will literally be here forever lol. A debate like this I dont think has an end. Unless anyone has any questions that they really want to ask me I think I am going to call it a day. I have gained an insight into how everyone views dog behaviour and that was what I really wanted to do. Please though dont completely rule out what I have said, maybe just keep it at the back of your mind and read up on it. I think that will be the only fair way for anyone to have a balanced opinion.

Thanks everyone Smile
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StuartW
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorna wrote:
Yo. ur scientific curiousity should be aroused.


Slang and text-speak.. Lorna, I am disappointed! Laughing
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StuartW
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephanie, I am impressed by your calm composure in the face of such a fierce initial reaction. I may not agree with your thoughts, but I admire your attitude.
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StuartW wrote:
I may not agree with your thoughts, but I admire your attitude.


I agree

Smile
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kendal
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashley wrote:
StuartW wrote:
I may not agree with your thoughts, but I admire your attitude.


I agree

Smile



i agree this is truly a discussion, other topics of this nature have dropped into slagging matches with lots of personal remarks, i am proud of everyone involved.
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Lorna
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuart, just trying to prove I'm not really an old fogey. Cool
Obviously not successful. Rolling Eyes
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StuartW
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lorna wrote:
Stuart, just trying to prove I'm not really an old fogey. Cool
Obviously not successful. Rolling Eyes


Yo ma woman, ul always B kewl to me! Laughing
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Lorna
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Cool
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Stephanie21
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the compliments Smile It's lovely to end on a positive note. Thanks everyone for being up for this debate and sharing your opinions. It's great everyone has stayed civil and I hope everyone has enjoyed talking about this topic as much as I have!

Thanks again Smile Smile
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marcella
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stephanie, I hope you can contribute to other threads here too ........... plenty going on and plenty to laugh at too! Wink
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John Thomson
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you will be sticking around on the forum Stephanie?

I have enjoyed this.
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Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PHEW!!!! Hot topic this one!!!

I know it's not been active since May but I found it so interesting I just had to stay up late and have my say.....please feel free to ignore

I must say that I am a very firm believer in the "pack order" in its most simplistic form (not having read any of the books referred to I can't comment on specifics). I am the Boss, I let Mark THINK he's the Boss sometimes Laughing sorry babe, couldn't resist! THEN the dogs are beneath us. Simple. They have discovered over time their own pack order. Ella, Rosie then Sykes but sometimes Rosie and Sykes switch, they're very laid back and easy going and don't really mind too much who does what but there is no doubting Ella is Alpha Dog. After them come the cats who also have their own pack order within the larger pack. It is natural, it has evolved that way. Each animal has found its place within the pack that is our family. Watch their behaviour as they "fight" for their place. I would stress at this point my dogs have NEVER had a proper fight with each other - we've had handbags sure and playfights, BOTH of which are employed to establish and assert dominance but "proper" fights would absolutely NOT be tolerated and they know it. I have seen what Staffs can do when they turn (another story that I will share another time perhaps) and at the slightest sign of it kicking off I step in and stop it before it happens all 6 stone of me! And believe me they take note and I have never needed to raise a hand to achieve this. I train my dogs based purely on my own experience and gut instinct. To keep them all safe for the short periods of time we might be away from home we use crates. I have never read a training guide but I firmly believe some people should such as the people you see on Dog Borstal and the likes. Either I have struck incredibly lucky with all of the pets I have owned or else, God how can this be put without sounding like I am really up my own bum??? what the hell I'll just say it...or else I just have naturally good instincts with dogs, how to behave with them, how to read them, learn from them and how to get the best from them to enable us all to live happily together! There said it! Embarassed Laughing Laughing

Very distinct and firm boundaries are required with dominance prone dogs and Staffs, having been bred by man for many centuries for fighting and baiting NEED and respect those. They NEED order in their lives. They NEED discipline, boundaries AND pack order but they also really really need love and play. Yes I am incredibly soppy with my lot, I shower them with love affection and fun I get the absolute best out of them that way but they KNOW their place and they KNOW what is and isn't acceptable I don't even need to shout when trying to get them to behave sometimes. I rarely issue the word "No" in "the voice"....they know they are going to far if they hear "erm" that tiny little word said in a normal voice is their first warning and it is usually enough.

I have my limitations mind, because they are an established pack in themselves they are not fantastic socially - they're great if it's gentle introductions on the lead but I'm not sure I would be at all confident walking them with such a large pack as you guys have...it would take me a while to pluck up the courage to cope with that! Razz

For all of the above being said I would have to also state that I found Stephanie's posts interesting reading. I see the common sense behind the theory in getting to the root cause for certain behaviours and I do firmly believe that dogs have far more complex emotions and behaviours than some people give them credit for but I'll be sticking with the Pack "theory" although how it could be considered a theory when it has proven to exist in every single aspect of every animals life on this planet in one form or another is beyond me. Of course a pack of Wolves should be viewed differently to how a pack of Humans or ants would behave and that is what should be remembered. Stephanie I mean no offence by that statement I just think that you should consider both and implement what is best for each individual circumstance as there are good aspects to be found in both "theories". Wink
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