possibly worth a read!!!! ( dog food!

[Lindy]

I am the same as Fiona on this one, I changed over the RAW as I was increasingly worried about just how hyper active Dora my JRT was, I walk my dogs for at least 1.5hrs every day and at the weekends for much longer. After her normal 1.5/2hr walk she would still be running about the house like a nutter wanting to play and go out again. Now some of this was to do with leadership within the house but even after sorting that problem she was still quite hyper active so i changed over from bakers complete and tinned food to Purina's beta kibble she calmed down dramaticly and when she had the pups I weaned them on the same kind of diet only puppy versions. However after reading lots on these kibbles and there manufacturers I decided to try out the RAW diet initally I used mince and chicken wings from the Supermarket which is obviously for human consumption I started to introduce heart, liver, kidney etc and once a week or so they would get a bone from the butchers, they were thriving on this diet with lovely clean teeth (no yellow tartar) nice shinny coats, bright and alert eyes and two very clam dogs who love their walks and playing but are clam and obedient indoors and on the lead. I decided to try the Landywoods dog food for working dogs which has been deemed by DEFRA fit fior human consumption and they are really enjoying it. I like Fiona will not change back to a comercial diet of dried kibble or tinned food as i don't want to feed my dogs food that have colourings and preservatives in it or that have been excessivly and cruely tested on animals of which are supposed to benefit from eating these foods. In defense of my vet they have never tryed to sell me any kind of dog food nor have they ever discussed diet with me other than to check my dogs weight and comment that they are happy with how healthy they are. I would be very keen to hear some comments on this type of feeding from any vet that is reading this forum and or anyone which formal qualifications in this area such as zoologists, or some qualified animal nutritionist (if there are such qualified people out there)

[Susan]

I am a geeky librarian, so I had a quick look at what's out there in the journals.
Like Lorna said, you have to be very careful even with them - not all journals are equal, lol!

There are a lot of articles (and I mean peer reviewed articles in reputable journals) which argue against the BARF diet, there seem to be three main reasons and those are 1. Optimum, balanced nutrition is rarely achieved, 2. Increased chance of urinary stones and pancreatitis, 3. Harmful effects to dogs (and humans) from bacteria/organisms in raw meat.

Now, I say this, I have not looked at the other side yet! But I reckon there will be articles in favour out there. I am new to all this though, so this may be stuff you guys have all looked at already! If you guys like I will post up abstracts and references for you to have a look at.

My friend is a vet, and I asked her about this as I was getting so worried about doing the right thing for Rufus, and her dog is on Pal, and she says that they don't get any commission at all on Hills or other dog food that they sell. She also said that she was not against a RAW diet for those who felt it suited their dogs. In fact she said that its very heartening that we all care enough to be discussing it, as she often has the opposite problem with people!

[suzanne l]

Its not that im entirely against the RAW diet, what worries me is how do people work out the exact amounts of nutrition that their dogs require? With complete foods this is all done, with RAW diet, you are potentially feeding far too much proteins, and not enough of the other components that dogs require such as vitamins, minerals etc. This can cause major problems with kidney and liver failure in later life, and I can assure you I have seen it happen.
The other problem is as someone has mentioned, many raw meats contain harmful bacteria and parasites. these can be potentially very harmful to dogs and can give them severe forms of food poisoning. This can be fatal. Again this is something i have seen, and I have nursed dogs with severe symptoms, I can assure you its horrible to see and nasty for the dog.
The argument that this is what they would eat in the wild is not much use, dogs have been domesticated for thousands years and their digestive systems have now developed differently to wolves, they are not the same. Many dogs struggle with high protein diets. Can you imagine humans went back to eating a primative diet, how many people do you think would be malnutritioned, as we cannot cope with that now.I work with veterinary surgeons who are canine nutritionists and they tell me that the raw diet causes many health problems, and that they personally feed complete foods.Feeding bones can also cause major problems if they stick somewhere in the digestive system. I have seen dogs getting exploratory laparotomys (basically cutting the abdomen open) to remove fragments of bones which have sliced up the guts. This can also kill.
Also, John, you say that you believe all animals including humans should eat a diet as natural as possible, out of interest, what do you eat? Do you grow all your own fruit and vegetables and raise your own livestock or go out hunting at weekends for food? Surely this would be the only way to ensure it was as fresh and natural as you seem to want.I would imagine its hard not to eat processed food these days at some point.
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your cat will never annoy by barking at 3am, he wont attack the postman or eat the curtains, although he may climb them to see how the room looks from the ceiling...

[suzanne l]

ps I like a debate too
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your cat will never annoy by barking at 3am, he wont attack the postman or eat the curtains, although he may climb them to see how the room looks from the ceiling...

[marcella]

[Karen]

oh Marcella she isnt kiddin suzanne has loved to debate since being a toddler, the one word to describe her love of animals is "passionate"
ps hope you are feeling better....

[kirsty]

I have been watching this thread with interest for a couple of days now, and can't keep silent any longer.

'it worries and insults me that some people on the forum have such a low opinion of the veterinary world' - your easily insulted. Please give us the credence of having enough intelligence to form our opinions through our own personal experiences.

I have gone on a length in other threads about the way I feed my animals and the reasons why. I didn't change over to raw feeding lightly, I had real concerns and in fact had been feeding them cooked meat as an alternative to feeding them commercial dog food for a good while before I changed to raw, I would have fed them anything rather than commercial dog food once I had looked into the contents and testing methods.

While I was researching my subject I took into account that any research can be biased - depending on the reasons behind the research and the source of the funding.

'but I don't like to see things written which aren't true' - I believe that most research and articles are 'true' but the truth can be manipulated to suit the required outcome.

I don't think anyone on this forum would write anything they feel not to be 'true' -their 'truth' comes from their own perspective and experience.

I always respect that every one has the right to their own opinions and choices - my choices are for me alone, I would never try to ram them down the throat of others -

I keep an open mind and If someone can convince me there is a better way to feed my boys, I will be the first to try it. But anyone just has to look at them to see they are calm, happy, healthy boys - a year ago, Bob was obese and Dodge was aggressive and scratching himself raw - so until I discover something healthier I will stick with the raw feeding and keep them off the preservatives and additives.

[Karen]

this thread will always raise lots of different views, hey thats life I think everyone agrees that we all do what we do through the love of our dogs, I have always feed my guys the best way possible in my view, just like I did for my kids, we only live once,
whats great is everyone has their own way of doing things and I am sure we all respect each others views, thats what makes the world go round, just like our own food we all have different views on that,

[Phoebe]

As you probably know, I do feed Sony raw. I red a lot of books before I started, and I think the people in the forum did as well.
I think people should always be aware that a raw diet does not mean, just to throw a steak in the bowl.
Sony get´s 30 percent fruit and veg and 70 percent meat and bones. Twice /week egg (without egg white) once/week fish, once/week yogurt etc. and every fortnight heart or liver. I personally think no complete dog food can offer my dog such a variety and satisfaction.

Before she ate raw, she was on James Wellbeloved. She never was a good eater, really thin and had always skin irritations. It´s like a miracle, but it´s gone, and we have to see the vet just for her yearly booster anymore.
I think it´s every ones personal choice and there are a lot of good dog foods on the market! For me BARF is a kind of hobby or a passion...
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"It is possible to live without a dog, but it is not worth it."
Heinz Rühmann

[kendal]

did her apatite improve once you changed over.
my two are not big eaters but did start eating better when we add raw mince, we have had to star browning it a little in a pan since they came back from kennels, but should get them back on track soon.

how did feeding raw work when you were camping in Sky.
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microchiping and grooming www.chipnclip.co.uk

[John Thomson]

[StuartW]

How about the poo?

Seriously! One of the best ways to measure the healthiness of a dog's diet (or a human's) is how 'nice' and solid and healthy their poo is.

We feed Doogle 'complete' stuff and also various incantations of raw material... I think he will outlive us all.. well me, anyway (Supernoodle Stu ). Although he did have a bad experience trying to 'pass' after his first bone... biggest yelp he's done

Most dogs (and again, humans) can live on wildly varied diets. The 'optimum' is out there, but stressing over how to get there just isn't worth it. Whatever floats your boat and keeps Fido happy.

[Phoebe]

[Karen]

Phoebe what on earth are you doing on a computer at 7am, couldn't you sleep

[Phoebe]